#012 - PERMA-V: Positive Emotions and Savoring the Best Parts of Life

Charles Knight 0:02

Welcome to the Wanna Grab Coffee podcast. In today's episode, Robert, Igor and I dive deeper into the perma v model of well being, by exploring p for positive emotions. We've talked in prior episodes about gratitude, which is a simple but powerful practice that increases positive emotions. Today we'll be focusing on the concept of savoring, as a way to amplify and enhance positive emotions that already exist in our lives. As always, don't forget to hit the subscribe button on your podcast player of choice. And feel free to drop us a line at [email protected] or on Twitter at Wanna Grab Coffee.

Igor Geyfman 0:42

Hey, what's going on y'all?

Charles Knight 0:44

Howdy.

Robert Greiner 0:45

Hey, how are you?

Igor Geyfman 0:46

Charles? Have you had any Starbucks lately?

Charles Knight 0:48

I did. Actually today. I missed that yesterday was national coffee day. Did y'all see that? I feel like we should know that if our podcast is called Wanna Grab Coffee. But it was brought to my attention late and so I did get a decaf Americano from a grocery store today. First time in a while.

Robert Greiner 1:05

Well, happy one day late national coffee day. Yeah.

Charles Knight 1:08

Thanks. Igor, how about you?

Igor Geyfman 1:11

Oh, me, you know, I'd love to talk about what I'm drinking. But for all of our podcast episodes, I have been preparing a different type of coffee beforehand, just so we could talk about it when we get together. But we never end up talking about coffee. And so today's the first day that I didn't do any real prep, and I just have the this bottle here. And it's for Jasmine unsweetened green tea. And you know, it's from Taiwan. And it's really, it's really great. It has like a floral note to it. It's very refreshing. And I like it. And it has a haiku on the back. And the Haiku says jigsaw pieces on the front porch, fading Twilight.

Charles Knight 1:55

That's beautiful.

Igor Geyfman 1:56

Free Haiku with every bottle.

Charles Knight 1:58

Thanks, man.

Igor Geyfman 2:00

I won't take credit for it. It's by Daryl Lindsey. So Darrell, if you're one of our listeners, you know full credit to you, buddy.

Charles Knight 2:06

That's awesome. Well, hey, I know we're we're not here to talk coffee all day long. But I know we wanted to dive a little bit deeper into the perma v model of well being. You know, we talked recently about that from positive psychology. And so today I wanted to talk to you all about p for positive emotions. We've talked about gratitude, already, as a practice to increase positive emotions. And if you haven't listened to that episode, highly encourage you to but you don't have to. Because today I wanted to talk about this concept of savoring. Kind of a funny word, to be honest, when I first think about it. But savoring is a way to amplify and enhance positive emotions that already exists in our lives. So whereas gratitude is a practice to help us cultivate more positive emotions, that's kind of how I frame up gratitude, sometimes. Savoring is, hey, what do you do when you have a positive experience? A positive emotion to really amplify and enhance the positive emotion? Yeah, what's what's the first thing that comes to mind when you think of savoring?

Igor Geyfman 3:33

Yeah, I think that when I hear savoring, I automatically think about my gustatory sense, and prolonging the joy of something. So, you know, if I'm eating an apple, taking the time to eat it and chew it, and think about it intentionally as I'm eating it to enhance my experience of getting into into eating an apple, just a silly example. But that's, to me, I think of it as a prolonging. That's what I connected to is prolonging

Charles Knight 4:18

When you say gustatory, what do you mean by that?

Igor Geyfman 4:21

As it relates to gustation?

Charles Knight 4:23

I don't know what that means.

Igor Geyfman 4:26

I actually shouldn't use gustatory, because it's too specific. So when we eat, I mean, we with many different modes, right? So we touch it, right with our hand or our mouth or whatever. There's an olfactory component. And then there's a gustatory component, which is the actual chewing and your taste buds and all that sort of stuff. And actually, if you're savoring something, it's probably a combination, not just gustatory that was too specific, but of which is the chewing mouth tastes. But the olfactory, which is where a lot of flavor comes from, people don't think about it. But most of your taste, your perceived taste comes from the smell of whatever you're eating. And there's actually been reports, you know, people with COVID they have lost their sense of smell, while having the disease, but then also it's not coming back for some people. There's just stories about people being surprised like, I can't taste well. No, they're gustatory senses are actually fine. It's their olfactory senses that are being affected. And so they perceive they can't perceive tastes. So yeah, I was too specific with the word gustatory. Eating is really what I meant. I want to get fancy with my vocabulary. Charles, thanks for calling me out.

Charles Knight 5:45

Let's definitely an SAT word that that's what I think of too. You know, when I initially heard of this idea of savoring, it also is the name of a restaurant here in Dallas, Texas, where we all live and work. Sabir

Igor Geyfman 5:59

Yeah. Clyde Warren Park.

Charles Knight 6:01

Clyde Warren Park. Yeah, yeah.

Igor Geyfman 6:02

And there's also a food magazine, called Saveur, which is, I think the French word, I think I mean, I think it may mean flavor. Actually, let me look that up. While Robert does his thing, I'm gonna look it up.

Charles Knight 6:16

Yeah. Robert, what's your reaction to this idea of savoring?

Robert Greiner 6:19

So the word I mean, when I heard it, I definitely thought food as well. What I'll add to what you said is this idea of remembering the experience or the emotions well after the fact. So you know, having a really good experience or a vacation or even meal with a family member or something like that. And if you have some kind of picture, or you're talking with someone and reminiscing about an experience that you've had together, it sort of brings those positive emotions back from when you experienced them to begin with. And so I definitely think there is an aspect of that remembrance and sort of ongoing reminiscing to increase the positive emotions in your life, because you probably aren't milking the good ones you've already had to the fullest extent. And so I'm a big fan of that the downside there as with all things, it's a balance. If you spend too much time trying to document a given experience, you miss out on what's actually happening around you, I think a lot of what my kids have done in the past, for instance, has been experienced through the the screen of my phone instead of me being present in the moment. And so there's certainly a balance there to achieve.

Igor Geyfman 7:39

I did look up the French word, and saveur, which I think is how you say it means flavor. And then I reminded that in Spanish, of course, it's savour also means flavors. So that's in other languages, that word sort of just means flavor. But tell tell us tell us the meaning in English?

Charles Knight 7:58

Well, from a positive psychology standpoint, I'll give you a definition. Because that's what we're talking about here. So savoring is the use of thoughts and actions, to increase the intensity, duration, and appreciation of positive experiences and emotions. So it's the use of thoughts and actions, to increase the intensity, duration and appreciation of positive experiences and emotions. And I think that that speaks to this idea that we can do things intentionally to amplify and enhance our emotions. I think it's a little more obvious when we might be in a downward spiral with our emotions, we can just kind of go and pile on to ourselves, it's like, oh, I made this mistake at work. You know, that meeting was terrible. Oh, my gosh, these people saw that I was terrible. I suck at my job, I'm gonna lose my job. And we just kind of pile on and amplify the negative. It's very easy to do, because of our negativity bias. As humans, we have that. And savoring is the opposite, right? It's the how can you amplify and enhance the positive to kind of shift that ratio of our negative experiences to positive. Definitely not saying that the intent is to remove all negative experiences because that's just not feasible. It's also not beneficial in my mind, because I think we we grow a lot from negative experiences, but certainly I can think of times when something good has happened in my life, and I was a very quick to try to push away the good feelings for whatever reason, like diminish it in some way. Oh, no, you shouldn't have, don't recognize me for an accomplishment or something. And there's probably a whole host of reasons why I did that. But you can do the opposite. You know, you can, instead of dampening you can enhance positive emotions. And that's what I want to talk about. But, Robert, I think you were about to chime in with something.

Robert Greiner: 10:16

Well, yeah, that's a really interesting point. I haven't thought about it this way before. But when you're experiencing a negative emotion, at least, I found that this is true in my life, you tend to kind of sit on it for a while. You had a bad interaction with a work colleague, or with a friend, or with a spouse, or kids and you just dwell on that for days or longer. And then on the flip side, when something really good happens, you tend to move past it much quicker. And so I think we all have this ability to dwell on positive emotions. Because we've practiced that on the negative side, I think it just might take a little bit more intentionality. And I like that thoughts and actions idea you brought in earlier of really prolonging and sitting in those positive moments as well. So that that's something new for me, I'm definitely gonna think about it a little bit more.

Charles Knight: 11:11

Yeah, thanks. for that. I forgot to mention the points that you were, that both of you brought up is that you can savor the present moment. So Igor, you were talking about eating that apple? Really being intentional about what that feels like? What that tastes like? Robert, I heard you say you can savor the past, like past experiences, like remembering a vacation, looking at pictures and things like that. You can also savor the future. You know, it's one of the great benefits that I get out of planning vacations, is the positive anticipation of that event. Knowing that, I have good times when I travel, I enjoy seeing new places and eating new things and documenting that in picture form, for example, you can savor things that haven't yet happened either. And yes, absolutely, there's that balance that's required, you can't get too lost in the past or the future, and ignore the present. But you could practice with all those things, recalling those good experiences that you've already had. Actually, I wanted to ask you all, have you had an experience in the past, like a positive experience, that for some reason or another, you also tried to dampen. But I've mentioned that in my life, I've had those experiences where I try to minimize the good. For some reason, maybe because I was embarrassed or something like that. But has that happened to you all.

Robert Greiner: 12:45

So for me personally, it's not so much a minimizing the good on on purpose, or wanting to sort of avoid those feelings. And we've talked about this in prior podcasts as well. But I'm just so achievement oriented, I tend to get something going, have an accomplishment, have an experience. And then I'm off to the next one. And sometimes even, you're thinking about dinner before you've eaten lunch kind of deal, where you're just moving at a pace that does not accommodate that level of savor and appreciation. And so for me, as we're talking, and this is really eye opening, I'm so glad we're talking about this today, I think building in those loops, or reminders, you know, like on on Facebook and Twitter and things like that, you get the year in review, and every now and then you just get something put in front of you that's like, hey, go back in and look and remember about your life and what this time period was like every year on our anniversary, actually, except this year. So first time in 11 years where we did not my wife and I did not go back to the Arboretum where we got married. And normally we would go and grab a pizza from our favorite place and you can bring food in. So we would go and sit in the garden that we got married at and kind of talk about the prior year. And I always remember really looking forward to that time because you get to reflect on how much life has changed over the last 12 months and relive these moments together. And I think if I don't, personally, if I don't do that intentionally, it's never going to happen. And I think that's a shame, like I'm going to miss out on a lot of that positive emotion, because I move past it so quickly. And so I think it for me personally, as I'm talking this through out loud, I think coming back to moments, is a good thing. And then maybe at some point I'll be able to better recognize when when I'm in them and be able to appreciate them in the moment more. But I think as a first step I should definitely spend more time trying to re-invoke those those moments and feelings.

Charles Knight: 14:56

That's awesome. I was I was just smiling, thinking about y'all, going to the Arboretum, you know, and reliving those positive memories. Thanks for sharing that. Igor, have you ever experienced diminishing of positive experiences? Or am I just crazy?

Igor Geyfman: 15:12

Yeah, I do it all the time. I think the one that stands out to me the most, my entire life, basically, ever since I can remember, I can't remember when I wasn't drawing, or painting, or sculpting, or creating some sort of visual thing. You know, people call that art, even when I won awards. So I have this habit, I will create my latest piece, and I'm done with it, right, it gets to a point where I can't look at it anymore. And then I throw it away. I, in my lifetime, I have created hundreds of pieces of let's call it art. And I don't have a single one that I've saved. They've all gone in the trash. And even the ones that have won awards, at the end of the process, I do like whatever maybe is the opposite of savoring. Right, I just I'm like, this is garbage. And I just throw it out. Because I know, I can do better. Right? And then what I don't want is this artifact that reminds me, of me not being as good as I am today. And that's, probably some sort of really strange thing going on there. And I don't know what it is, but to me, that's like a clear example of when you said, hey, do you ever not savor?

Charles Knight: 16:42

Not a single one?

Igor Geyfman: 16:44

Not a single one, not a painting, not a sculpture. Nothing.

Charles Knight: 16:47

There's something I mean, I don't know if I do that. But there's something that resonates. It's kind of like, hey, you look back on things that you've written, right? I've talked about before how I'm trying to improve on my writing. Yeah, looking back on emails that I've written documents that I've written from years ago, I look at that, and I cringe, so I think it's not exactly the same thing. But there's something there in your, in your story that resonates. I wonder if you think you need to do that in order to get better. I know it's something that you don't want to be reminded of, because you feel like it is not, it's subpar in some way, that's really interesting. I'm not a mental health professional, so I can't help you unpack that Igor.

Igor Geyfman: 17:34

You know, I'm gonna say that there are Igor originals that exist in the world. But they only exist because I did them for someone else. They're commissioned, right in some way. And, and I'm not the one that was the curator, and the guardian of those pieces. And so they do exist. But if if it wasn't created for somebody else, then it goes in the trash.

Charles Knight: 18:04

I think that is probably a shared attribute amongst world class artists.

Robert Greiner: 18:10

Well, you know, Ira Glass talks about this on NPR. So he says that if you gain interest in a subject matter area, storytelling, art, whatever, because you have this really great sort of innate taste. And your taste always outpaces your skill. And so by definition, you are creating work that you think sucks, because it does not match the taste that you have what he would say, like you have this really killer taste, what you're creating doesn't match. And so what he would say what Ira Glass would say, and I think this is this is spot on is you have to just keep creating, and you'll get better.

Igor Geyfman: 18:52

Robert, I think you hit a bull's eye. With that, like assessment. That's exactly what it is. Right? Like, it's, this is not to my level of standard. This is not to my level of taste. And therefore, I don't want to look at it. You know, I want to move on. And I know I can do better on the next one. And I usually do better on the next one. I regret it sometimes, Charles, because sometimes having like a fossil record of your progress can be really meaningful. And when you throw stuff away, you don't have that fossil record. And sometimes we're bad judges of how much progress we've made. And I'm reminded of that. I used to work out with this coach, his name is John. And John, about a year into us working together, said hey, Igor, let's start with a workout. Your very first workout that you did here. And and we did the very first workout and we basically blew through it in like 10 or 15 minutes. But I very distinctly remember the moment during the first workout with John, where I thought it was the hardest thing anyone's ever made me do in my life. And then basically a year later, and I asked him, is this really the first workout? And he's like, Yeah, man, absolutely, this is exactly what you did the first time we worked out together. And it was pretty incredible to put it into that context. And, and that's why sometimes having that fossil record of stuff that you've created is important, regardless of whether your taste outpaces your skill, which I think was very deathly described, Robert,

Charles Knight: 20:54

I really love that story. Because I think it points to how adaptable we are, as humans. You know, we adapt very well, actually, even though a lot of us, myself included, may not think that. And I really like the way that people put this concept of savoring. So you've heard of coping mechanisms? Yeah. It's like, Oh, we must develop coping mechanisms to help with, things that come up in life, negative experiences, negative emotions. And those are good, right, that that helps to minimize the kind of the downside of those experiences. savoring is the opposite of a coping mechanism in a way, that maybe not exact opposite. Maybe that metaphor doesn't hold true. But if coping is meant to help deal with negative emotions, and its consequences and minimize those. Savoring, is a way to maximize the benefits of these positive experiences. And I think if we if we develop a healthy set of tools, both coping and savoring, that can really help us to be more adaptable as we move through life. Because again, the goal is not to experience positive emotions 100% of the time, life would be dull and uninteresting if we were to do that. So let me share with you all some tips to enhance positive experiences. So these are things that you can intentionally do to set up the conditions for savoring, to happen like for your next, your next positive experience. There's six of them. I'm going to read them out. And then I'm going to ask each of you, hey, which one stands out to you? I'm not going to explain it because I think a lot of them are self explanatory. So there's six, six kind of tips to enhancing savoring: duration, reducing stress, complexity, attentional focus, balanced self monitoring, and social connection. So I'll read them again, duration, reducing stress, complexity, attentional focus, balanced self monitoring, and social connection. And as I read them, I realized some of them probably need an explanation, but I'll wait to see if you'll have questions about that. But anything stand out, Robert, do you want to want to kick us off? This is from the world there's research done in positive psychology around savoring in particular, but so they've identified based off of kind of surveys, and, you know, experiences of people, you know, self reported experiences of people trying to savor these positive experiences. These are the key components that are important when trying to enhance the savoring of positive experiences. Like if I wanted to not push away my positive experiences, and diminish those and limit those and get maximum effect. I need to think about these things like duration is simple. Make sure I have time to savor the experience. If I'm going to a restaurant and enjoying a meal. I shouldn't have something scheduled after dinner. That will make me rush through my meal and get out the door. So that way, I can just savor the moment, you know, so that that's what it's meant by my duration, for example.

Well, and that could also go back to it doesn't have to be synchronous, right? Like in the moment you can you can remember those positive experiences like we talked about before. Okay, Igor anything else on duration? Or do you want to go to the next one? Maybe we could just take them one at a time?

Igor Geyfman: 25:12

Yeah, I'm, I'm pretty good on duration.

Charles Knight: 25:15

Yeah. So for reducing stress, I think that this is kind of your mindset going into the experience itself. Robert, let's say you did set up time at some point in the future to go to the Arboretum, with your wife to celebrate your anniversary. But you know, prior to driving in, you get a flat tire on the way there, you end up being late for your reservation, because I think you have to make reservations to go there now. And you run into a lot of traffic, and you forgot the pizza, or maybe you order the pizza, and they botched up your order. Right, that creates a lot of stress. You know, leading up to that, that experience that can really, really sabotage your desire to savor that experience. Does that makes sense?

Robert Greiner: 26:13

Yeah. Is the idea there that you should look to mitigate stressors just in general or while you're trying to experience positive emotion? Or what's what's the idea behind? Or are they just saying stress undermines your ability to save or to have positive emotions?

Charles Knight: 26:31

Yeah, I think a little bit of both. I think for sure, stress can dampen positive experiences. But I think what the research points to is that savoring doesn't come naturally to most people, just like coping mechanisms have to be taught and practiced and refined over time. Savoring needs to be approached in the same way. And so when you are able to be intentional about it, and say, yes, I am going to spend schedule this anniversary outing. These are things that you can do to maximize the potential for savoring and all the positive benefits that come from that. Does that make sense?

Robert Greiner: 27:21

Okay, that makes sense. Yeah. Yep.

Charles Knight: 27:25

Yeah, complexity is what you were talking about Igor, around enjoying food. When they talk about complexity in terms of savoring, it's really engaging all of the senses, like really trying to tap into, okay, how does it smell? What does it tastes like? What does it look like, the the meal, you know, if, if that's what you're trying to savor. And so the more complex, you can make the experience, hey, maybe there's a favorite song playing, right? That you that you play along with that experience, the more you can, the more complex you can make the experience, the better chance that you get and really truly savoring that experience. Attentional focus, Igor, you also talked about, there's this really being aware of what's happening. And, you know, focus can be diffused, it can be kind of broad, you can put your focus on what's happening in the room, but you can also have very kind of pinpoint focus to. Let me really pay attention to one of these things. And that's what they're talking, they're balanced self monitoring. Robert, you're actually brought this up, that's the next one. And it's this idea of, maybe you're on a trip to the Grand Canyon, and you're struck with awe at seeing the Grand Canyon. And immediately, you want to take out your camera and take a picture of the Grand Canyon, which would diminish that sense of all in the moment. And so this idea of balanced self monitoring, is that you have to recognize that you will have the desire to do that. And you have to try to resist that urge. And sometimes you will be successful at saying you know what, Nope, I'm just going to sit here with my kids looking out at the Grand Canyon. And other times, you won't be successful and you'll pull out your camera, but it's in really finding that balance of like, whoa, wait a second. This is a moment that I need to savor. Let me savor it more. Because if you get lost in it, too, that's not so great either. Let's say you just get lost in the moment. Well, then maybe you don't actually remember enough of it, to be able to recall it later. So there's this desire for balanced self monitoring that comes into play, it's a skill. And then finally is social connection. And it's really just a, a lot of savoring. And this is probably why meals are so important to people in human history, the social connection. Robert, you were talking about your anniversary trips to the Arboretum that made me smile. Because like, I could feel the joy and imagine the joy of you all doing that. And so sharing the experience with others, either in the moment or after the fact, is a big component to enhancing savoring.

Robert Greiner: 30:45

For me personally, and I think positive emotion is such an important component of the perma v framework we talked about last time. And this really breaks down the idea and breath of positive emotion into a lot of different sub areas that were completely off my radar before. So this is a really eye opening for me.

Charles Knight: 31:06

Yeah, I, you know, as I look at this list, I think this is probably why I like meditation so much. Because of these six things, reducing stress, attentional focus, balanced self monitoring, I think all three of those are enhanced, or enabled through a practice of mindfulness. So we should, at some point, talk about that on the podcast.

Igor Geyfman: 31:32

The last component, sharing joy with others, is the one that resonates the most with me out of the five. It just aligns with things, just how I naturally like to experience things. And I also like it, because it creates a chance for infection of joy, with on with others, right. So hopefully, it's not just a joyous moment for you, um, or even worse at the expense of, like, whoever you're sharing it with, hopefully, it's a joyous moment for both of you, right? Like, if Robert is taking his wife to the Arboretum. It's not, because Robert just enjoys going to the Arboretum, and his wife would actually rather not be there because she's like over it or whatever. Or she's neutral about it. Hopefully, both people are enjoying that moment.

Robert Greiner: 32:29

Well, you know that that's a really interesting point, I am apathetic towards the Arboretum. Like it, I have allergies, and usually I have to load up on Claritin ahead of time. And we got married in the summer in May, right. So it's hot. And, so this is not a place I would go to, on my own for fun. And I didn't go growing up, it's been there my whole life. Yet, when I go with my wife, especially around our anniversary, it's one of the things I look forward to most. And so this place that you could even argue I have a neutral, somewhat negative opinion about personally, I really enjoy. And that is directly related to the social component of savoring, and then also the the idea of duration, we're going back and, and reliving the past year and around our wedding time and talking about that as well. And so you can even take, I think something that's, you know, neutral or slightly negative and, and enhance it through some of these items as well, which is really interesting.

Charles Knight: 33:48

Yeah, thanks, guys. I think let's wrap this up with maybe some practical tips from each of you. So one thing I haven't talked yet about is that savoring can come from positive feelings that are outside of yourself and inside of yourself. And so, one of the positive emotions that exist out there is awe like something that's awe inspiring like the Grand Canyon, like I've experienced that before. And that feeling came from something outside of me. A positive feeling that comes from inside of me, there's pride. Like, I feel pride for my kids like and how awesome they are as human beings. And you know, enjoying a great meal, or a wonderful cup of coffee that comes from inside yourself too and that's that's related to, you know, kind of physical pleasure. You know, the gustatory sense and olfactory, all this stuff that Igor educated me on earlier. And so maybe let's wrap it up with what is a source of positive emotions for each of you. And we'll go one that's outside of yourself, and one that is from inside of yourself. Does that make sense? Like, just what's the source of positive emotions for you. And maybe, maybe I'll start. So I see you all, pondering, which is good. For me, nature is that source of positive feelings. I feel very strongly that every year, I need to make it to either the mountains, or the ocean. And I don't really care where those are, at least once a year, ideally, I hit both of those in a year. Because of the awe that it helps me to feel like when I stare out into the ocean, or I'm at the top of a mountain. And so that is definitely an external source of positive feelings for me.

Robert Greiner: 36:13

Certainly, the external one for me would have to do with being around a group of people where there's good energy and everyone sort of getting along and there's just a good vibe in the room in the situation it can be it can be as small as one or two other people or a larger gathering. And I think if I'm sort of in that area, I get a lot of energy from being in a group of people that that has a high degree of positivity around it. And then internally, definitely, that that sense of accomplishment, and achieving some goal, some objective, learning something new, and maybe miserable going through it. But once I sort of get past the hump and get it done, I feel really good. And so usually, when I'm feeling overwhelmed, or a little bit negative, I'll just pop open OmniFocus, for instance, and just start doing things off of it. Because I know that that will give me some sense of positive accomplishment and a good feeling that I can carry forward.

Charles Knight: 37:33

Nice. Thanks, Robert.

Igor Geyfman: 37:35

Yeah, I think I think for me, something that is awe inspiring for me. And, you know, I think nature is definitely one of those things. But if I were to choose something else, it would be watching people who have mastery over a particular subject or skill. You know, like a few years back, I watched this geo dreams of sushi movie, I think it was on Netflix at the time. But it's about this 85 year old man who had been making sushi for over six decades, and really has become a master in his craft, and just watching, the precision of his movements, that thoughtfulness of the act, was really amazing to me. And, really, anytime I'm watching an Olympic athlete, or a craftsman, or, you know, a sushi master, in this case, there's this real positive feeling of feeling good about humanity. Right, it's like, holy cow, it's amazing that we can take these things, however, small, they might seem, to a really big level. And, so that's, that's maybe an external one for me. And I don't know if this is internal or external, but something that I thought about it that's related to food. What I enjoy more than like, the experience of eating a good meal, is the experience of preparing a meal and sharing it with people to enjoy. Like, that gives me probably 100 times more pleasure than eating a great meal that somebody prepared for me, or that I prepared for myself. And so, that's one of those things that I can really savor. And sometimes we'll do this group events where we go and we cook for the Ronald McDonald House, and my favorite moment, is standing back, right when people start filtering in and around 830 and just watching these families enjoy a meal that you prepared. And they don't have to say anything. Right, just seeing that they're having a good time. They're getting nourishment. They're getting joy out of it. Just feel so freakin good.

Charles Knight: 39:58

Huh? Yeah, thanks for that Igor. I know what you mean on that, because we've shared that experience together. So thanks for that reminder. I think that's it, guys. I would say for our listeners, do this exercise for yourself. Identify what is one, at least one source of positive feelings and emotions in your life, something outside of yourself, but also something inside of yourself. And, check out some of our notes in the show notes to help you bring more of that into your life. And I think that's really what we're talking about here. And with that, thank you all for the conversation. I appreciate it. We'll look forward to our next chat.

Igor Geyfman: 40:42

Awesome topic. Thanks for bringing it to us.

Robert Greiner: 40:45

Yeah, this has been great. Thank you, Charles. I appreciate you thinking of this.

Charles Knight: 40:50

My pleasure. See y'all.

Igor Geyfman: 40:52

See ya.

Robert Greiner: 40:53

All right, bye. That's it for today. Thanks for joining and don't forget to follow us on Twitter at Wanna Grab Coffee or drop us a line at [email protected].